Podcast:Unfinished Business
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Tease
RDM: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the podcast for episode eight of season three of-
Grace: Battlestar Galactica!
RDM: -Battlestar Galactica. This is "Unfinished Business". I'm Ronald D. Moore, developer and executive producer of the new Battlestar Galactica and I'd like to welcome you to an interesting podcast. We're up in Vancouver for change, at the- Terry and I's apartment, and we are joined by...
Grace: Grace Park
RDM: and...
Tahmoh: Tahmoh Penikett
RDM: as well as...
Terry: Mrs. Ron.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: All here to tell you about this particular episode, which is actually one of my favorite episodes of the entire series, in all honesty.
Terry: Mine too.
RDM: This episode has a unique history within the show in how it was developed. It was really unusual and unlike any other episode we ever did.
Terry: (Unintelligible.)
RDM: This episode comes directly out of the finale from last season, in which we took the year leap forward. And then had the Cylons come and played out the occupation storyline. Well, there was always a knowledge that, "Ok, well what happened in the missing year?" That's the key question. You make this year ahead leap in chronology and the fun of it is not knowing what happened in the intervening year. Are you ever going to go back and talk about those events? And I really wanted to. But the problem was we were only gonna be on the New Caprica location for those first three episodes. That's all we were budgeted to do, and once we built that enormous fuckin' city and took it down, we weren't gonna put it up again just to shoot a couple of flashbacks in a later episode. So it was a now or never proposition. We were gonna have to do something with the show-
Grace: I love that you did that.
RDM: - and shoot it back in those sets.
[Note: the previous two and a half lines appear in the MP3 version only, the following three lines appear in M4A version only.]
RDM: Press play again at one minute thirty-nine seconds into the Teaser.
Grace: You have the time on there, huh?
RDM: Yup.
RDM: OK, so this is...
Grace: Oooh, yeah.
RDM: ...the first of many boxing sequences within the show. And the first flashback to Lee from the end of the show. We played a lot with chronology in terms of flashback and what time you see which images and this episode has a- this is a lot of editing was done in this particular show to figure out how to put all these different pieces together. And the editors, Mike O'Halloran, Jacques Gravett, and Jeute (?) our new guy, spent a lot of time working on this show.
Grace: I like that black mouthguard you have. (unintelligible)
RDM: Black mouthguard...
Grace: Isn't that your own?
Tahmoh: No, no. Oh, yeah. It probably was, actually.
Grace: Yes, it's yours.
Tahmoh: I did bring in my own.
Grace: Yeah.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: And your own shoes.
RDM: Now, Tahmoh, have you boxed before.
Tahmoh: Yeah... yeah, I've boxed for years just for exercise. I've never really done it competitively. I spar a lot, but I've actually been more into kickboxing that boxing, but always been a huge fan of it. Of most fighting art forms and martial arts.
RDM: Mmhmm.
Tahmoh: Yeah. I've been kickboxing for years. But I love boxing. I love it.
RDM: I remember coming down to the set when Bob was shooting this. Bob Young, the director of this episode, yeah-
Grace: (Chuckles.)
RDM: -and walking to the hangar deck and really hoping that I was gonna feel like I'd walked into a boxing match.
Tahmoh: Mmhmm.
RDM: Because that's the whole thing. That you really had to sell the mood and the feeling of a boxing match. Not just down in the gymnasium or something. And when I walked in there it was just like- it was- it felt so perfect. And the way everybody was hanging out around the boxing set-
Grace: Yeah.
RDM: -felt authentic.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: People were into the boxing of it all.
Tahmoh: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, I mean, to be honest with you, when I heard about this episode and I knew we were gonna do it, you and I were discussing this before but- I mean, originally I was written, I was holding pads in one scene and I was so depressed.
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: I think I talked to Brice, and I was like, "This horrible. This is just a travesty. This wrong."
Grace: I think you used to fight Starbuck.
Tahmoh: Ye- or something.
Grace: In the original one.
Tahmoh: Well, not even. I don't think I was fighting. I was holding pads.
Grace: Oh, yeah.
Tahmoh: And I was like, "This is just horrible. I can't- I've been studying for- training for years and I love- This is my passion and I've made this clear to the producers-"
RDM: And here you are holding the pads.
Tahmoh: And I'm holding pads.
Grace and RDM: (Laugh.)
Tahmoh: Like, let me get my ass kicked, at least. C'mon. Just get me in there.
RDM: You gotta start somewhere.
Tahmoh: I know.
RDM: You gotta earn the right.
Tahmoh: I gotta earn the right, yeah.
RDM: You gotta earn it.
Tahmoh: But when we had the rewrites and then I found out I was actually in there, man, I was so excited.
Grace: Yeah, you were (unintelligble)
Tahmoh: I was so excited.
RDM: Yeah, in the early drafts of this episode, the first fight of the boxing was not Lee and Helo, it was Lee and a nameless guest star who, literally, whose name I cannot recall. And essentially Lee just like, destroyed this guy. Just took him apart in some really ugly way. It was meant to establish his complete ferocity and anger in his life at that point and I think as we worked through the drafts it didn't feel interesting and I think we started talking about, well if he's boxing somebody we know, and then somehow it came up, "Yeah, Helo. Yeah, let's do Helo. Let's have him boxing Helo." But, it was still going to be Lee beating the crap out of Helo.
Tahmoh: (Laughs.)
RDM: Right?
Grace: Which is such bullshit. (Laughs.) (unintelligble)
RDM: And then I got word back that Tahmoh was like, "No, I'd take this guy apart. What are you talking about?"
Tahmoh: (Laughs.)
Grace: Yeah. C'mon!
Tahmoh: What? What, are you kidding?
Grace: That quote on a (unintelligble)
Tahmoh: Have you seen me? I'm Helo.
Grace: Have you seen me?
Tahmoh: I'm Helo. Anything other than a Centurion, I'm taking him out. C'mon now.
Grace: The only one that beats up on Helo is his wife.
RDM: We changed this a bit.
Tahmoh: That's right.
Grace: 'Cause she's a Cylon.
Tahmoh: Well we have- we bring that to the scene, too. You watch. If I ever get a little excited, Grace gives me this look in most scenes that we have and I'm like, "Ok."
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: I think the interesting thing- the tough thing about this episode is both the thing that I love about it as well, is how bad you make Starbuck look. How much do you hate Starbuck by the end of the show, and yet feel this like intense compassion for her? That's the trick of the episode, in a real way, 'cause the cord, the central cord of this show is Starbuck and Apollo.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: Yeah, where they are, where they were. And it's easy on some level to really loathe her for what she does to him in the show, but I think there's definitely a part of the show that I think really validates her feelings as a really damaged and screwed up person, and yet you never quite hate her. In the same way I don't think you ever quite hate Baltar.
Tahmoh: Or you quite hate the Cylons.
RDM: Yeah.
Tahmoh: I think that's what you've- we've wonderfully done in this show. You guys have wonderfully done. I mean, it's a constant theme throughout is, that's just it. You're looking at these people and their actions and you're like, you can have so much animosity towards them, and you're just like, "Wow. How could- how and why would would- were you to do this?" By the end of it, though, once you realize the motivation behind their feelings, I mean, like you said, you start to understand. You have compassion for them, somewhat, and it can happen.
Terry: If you think about it, in real life, how often we all do that.
Tahmoh: Well, that's just it.
Terry: How many friends do have that just- that one friend that just fucks up over, and over, and over, and...
RDM: -And you can never let them go, you never
Terry: You keep letting them get away with-
RDM: -You never lose-
Terry: -oh and then they've got an excuse and you understand, because you judge people, generally on their intent. And most people don't set out to do (unintellible)
RDM: See, look at Grace.
Grace: Yeow!
RDM: Sharon is, we were talking about this earlier, Sharon is at the happiest I've ever seen the character in this episode.
Grace: This is the most she's ever allowed to smile.
RDM: You've gotta watch her in the back. Now what was your choice on that? Was that written into the script or was that something you came up with on the set.
Grace: No...
RDM: Or that's just the way you felt?
Grace: I think it was partly that's how I felt and probably a lot of actually the energy of what was going on in that room. I remember stepping on the set like you and I was like- I mean, this is the hangar bay. We're there all the time.
RDM: Mhmm.
Grace: And it's not that big. And I was blown away. I was so excited. Because- just the ring alone, empty got me super excited. And also (unintelligble) we see it turn into (unintelligible whisper) I'm allowed to say that?
RDM: Yeah.
Grace: Joe's bar? Do we have that yet?
RDM: No. But go ahead. That's ok.
Grace: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, when I- I think because we get so used to seeing it one way. Yeah, absolutely got me really excited but it's funny because Michael Rymer told me that, when he watched, that he just thought I wasn't focusing. (Laughs.)
RDM: That's just Rymer slapping her around. He's just-
Grace: Which totally, of course, screwed me up for like a good five episodes.
RDM: He's just using you Grace.
Grace: (unintelligible)
Terry: (Whispering) We need to (unintelligible) that guy.
RDM: There was a lot- this whole little bit of dropping your dog tags into the ammo box was the subject of much and great debate-
Terry: Really?
RDM: -in editorial. As so many of these things are. But for some reason that point didn't seem to keep coming through. That they put their dog tags in the ammo box and that's how they choose them to-
Grace: Oh, and you pull one out.
RDM: -who's gonna box next. So we had to keep going in and doing ADR and inserts. Really, in some level, belaboring this whole point of the dog tags in the box, which drives me a little bonkers as I'm watching this particular episode. But-
Grace: Is it really important though, you think, to explain things like that?
RDM: I don't. Personally, I don't.
Grace: I love not explaining things.
RDM: I feel like a lot of things...
Tahmoh: Well there you go, it's just (unintelligible)
RDM: I think you just throw a lot of things out sometimes and they're interesting just for their own sake.
Grace: Exactly.
RDM: Whether or not they add up to something particular or if you'd- if you saw them dropping their dog tags in the box, and we didn't make such a deal out of it, and you later wondered, "How did they pick the people who went into box?"
Grace: Exactly.
RDM: "I wonder if it's that dog tag thing?" I mean, it's just like, that acceptable.
Grace: Or you get it the next day. "Oh. Oh, is that what that was." I love finding out stuff later.
RDM: Yeah. I don't think that you have to, in the moment, know every connective pi- bit of tissue through the show.
Grace: Absolutely.
RDM: I still love- there's Baltar's only scene coming up.
Grace: (Chuckles.)
RDM: This has no Baltar in it. This was the one. We also- I also knew when we were doing this that this was the kind of episode that I could not cut over to the Cylon baseship.
[Note: RDM's previous comment appears in the MP3 version only.]
Act 1
[Note: The portion of the next comment before "Ok" is on the M4A version only.]
RDM: This- (unintelligable) meant essentially you're going from the present to the past all the time, playing with audience's sense of place and- Ok. Act one just started.
That you couldn't, at the same time, also be cutting over to this other Cylon world and telling a story over there. 'Cause you can never lose yourself in the rhythms of this flashback in this emotional narrative so we had to look at the Baltar story on the Cylon baseship and- separately, and realize that it was gonna take this gap in- at a certain point in that story and how do you structure those pieces around so that you can get- break away from that sh- from that story for one episode and then come back to it in nine. So this is a very comp- there was like a lot of moving pieces to construct this episode.
Tahmoh: When we were discussing this earlier you were saying that you felt there was- this episode was somewhat poetic. I think that's a good way to describe it, because it's, man, it's beautiful. I love the flashbacks. Love how they're done. I mean, for me personally at the end of the second season, I was really, really curious. Like, really curious. I'm like, "What's going on?"-
RDM: -Favorite shot of Mary. Look at this. Look- sorry.
Tahmoh: Oh, gorgeous. Yeah.
RDM: Mary in the red dress.
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: Yeah. This is just a great scene between the these (unintelligble)-
RDM: -It's a great scene.
Tahmoh: But I was just really curious betw- what was going on? What was the conflict between Starbuck and Lee that-
RDM: -Yeah.-
Tahmoh: that Anders is sick-
RDM: -Oh yeah.-
Tahmoh: -and she can't even ask him for some antibiotics.
RDM: Oh. He's- well, he's actually considering letting this guy die.
Tahmoh: Yeah. (unintellible)
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: He's thinkin' abo- he's thinkin' it over.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: He's act- so it's like, "Whoah. What happened between those two?"
Tahmoh: What happened between them?
Grace: Well it's funny because when I see that I naturally think the question, "What happened in the past?" Obviously there's something, yet, when my sister watches she's like, "I don't get it. 'Cause last time I thought they were happy. Now they're upset at each other. So what's going on?" (Chuckles.) Not everybody likes-
RDM: Has she watched everything now?
Grace: She watched everything up to that point.
RDM: I love this story-
Grace: -I love this.-
RDM: -of Adama and Laura in the past.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: There's something so really satisfying about believing that for that one moment in that missing year they almost...
Grace: Mmhmm.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: They almost...
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: They were both open to the possibility.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: That-
Grace: That's (unitelligible).
RDM: That in a place where they had- they no longer both were shouldering these enormous burdens.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: Yeah.
RDM: Her in particular. And he's just flying around in circles all day.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: That in that moment they actually were very comfortable with each other and they weren't flirting, but they were very, like, intimate and they-
Tahmoh: -And very present.-
RDM: -and very present.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: And it really influences how you look at their scenes now, after this episode, I think. It fundamentally changes how you see-
Grace: (unintelligible)
Tahmoh: Absolutely.
RDM: -the two characters.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: That's funny 'cause I-
Tahmoh: [11:42] Now you've got five hundred pounds of muscle in the ring right here.
RDM: Yeah.
Tahmoh: One of my best friends Aleks Paunovic.
RDM: Yeah?
Tahmoh: He's the ex-Canadian super heavyweight boxing champion.
RDM: Which one? The one in the black?
Terry: That's who he is?
Tahmoh: The one in the black, yeah.
RDM: In the black?
Tahmoh: That's one of my best friends. This is a man who I've let punch me in the head a few times.
RDM: Yeah?
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: A very humbling experience for me.
Grace: Suprise.
Tahmoh: This is Paul.
RDM: He is a very big guy.
Grace: And he's huge.
Tahmoh: Oh he's- Aleks is six-six.
Grace: Both of them are huge.
RDM: Six-six.
Tahmoh: Six-six, two-sixty, two-sixty five.
Grace: Did you see him? He just fell right on his face.
Tahmoh: Yeah, look at the size- look at his arms.
RDM: Oh, he's huge. He's monster!
Tahmoh: Look at his arms.
RDM: Wow.
Tahmoh: Look at the length of his arms.
RDM: Holy cow.
Tahmoh: He's got three inches, just his reach, the arm reach. He's got about three inches on Lennox Lewis. But Paul Lazenby is the stunt man who's boxing with him. And he's also a- he's a heavyweight MMA champion and Muay Thai fighter in Canada.
RDM: (Chuckles.)
Grace: Gosh.
Tahmoh: It's hilarious. You get five hundred pounds in there, rolling around.
RDM: I love that shot of Kara, right there.
Grace: Yeah.
RDM: And that shot of Helo.
Grace: Yeah, yeah.
Tahmoh: That's classic.
RDM: Those were in the first cut, and I was like, "Oh my God. That's great."
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: That's great.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: That's such a great moment.
Tahmoh: Yeah, I remember telling Tim about that 'cause he wasn't catching it at first. I'm like, "Look-"
Grace: [To RDM] It's cute to hear you say that.
RDM: Oh, it's- I love all those (unintelligible)-
Tahmoh: 'Cause that's what boxing's about. Like, if you're a true fan of it- I'm the type of guy- I go to fights all the time.
RDM: Mmhmm.
Tahmoh: Whether it be kickboxing, boxing, what have you. But that's what it's about. It's a very primal sort of experience, but it's very exciting. And you watch people at boxing matches, man. It's a different experience. Really, if you've ever been to one, it's not like regular sports game in any way. It's very different.
RDM: Now there-
Grace: You do go to fights a lot.
RDM: There-
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: [13:03]In this episode there was another fight that we were going to do. That we have Starbuck and Apollo, obviously is the main event. We have Adama and Tyrol. We had Lee and Helo. We had Kara and Hotdog. But we were going to do Gaeta versus Sharon.
Tahmoh: (Laughs.)
Grace: [In disbelief] Shut up!
RDM: We were!
Grace: Why?
RDM: We talked about it seriously in the writers' room for a while. We were r- I was really like- there was something about Gaeta who had been Baltar's chief of staff-
Grace: [deep voice] -And he's got some (uintelligble) now...-
RDM: -and had this, like, huge, like, enormous guilt that was laid on. He barely made it through "Collabor"- he was willing to die in "Collaborators".
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: Oh, I know. He gave up so easy.
RDM: And yet he's still on the ship, and they're still dealing with him (unintelligble), and there was something about him wanting. The storyline that became Adama and Tyrol actually started with Sharon and Gaeta, because his motivation was to go in the ring and have Sharon just beat the living shit out of him until he's almost dead. That's all he wanted, was her to just really wollop him and so he was in there and they were boxing and he was gonna- you weren't really whaling on him and he was gonna start baiting you and fuckin' with you-
Grace: Oh, you would have to.
[Note: the portion of the following four comments from RDM's "figure" to Grace's "maybe" appear only in the MP3 version.]
RDM: And then- oh, and well that was part of the problem. We were trying to figure, "Well what could you really say Sharon that's gonna?"
Grace: What could you really say that hasn't happened already?
RDM: How do you get under Sharon's skin?
Grace: Well, maybe bug her about her dead baby-
Act 2
[Note: The first two sentences of Tahmoh's comment are on the M4A version only.]
Tahmoh: We talked about that before too, though. I think that was actually a stronger choice, that you didn't actually have her fighting in the ring. The fact that she's just being reintegrated in the (unintelligble)-
RDM: Yeah. No, I think-
Grace: No way.
RDM: (unintellible) and what have you, and she's a Cylon. She's stronger. We didn't want her whoopin' ass on everybody right away.
Grace: There's no way. That's one of the things is there's no way that she would fight.
RDM: It's so- and there- it's so funny to see all these little bits and pieces. All these were much longer scenes as shot. Balta- we wrote out Baltar's welcoming speech. The Founder's Day celebration
Tahmoh: With the shovel.
RDM: We shot- I was here when we were shooting a lot of this stuff. That's not Michael Hogan on the left. 'Cause he was not there that day.
Grace: What do you mean? Oh. Really?
RDM: Oh. See? The magic of film.
Grace: I actually thought you meant Trucco. I'm like "I'm (unintelligible)".
RDM: We went right past him. There's Michael-
Grace: There he is.
RDM: -and you wouldn't know the difference. But no, he wasn't available, so we had to go pick that up later.
Grace: I was looking at Trucco but, no that's Trucco, man.
Tahmoh: Kate.
RDM: There's Kate.
Grace: Lovely.
RDM: Love- Kate is lovely in this episode.
Grace: Mmhmm. She is.
Tahmoh: She's amazing.
RDM: She's lovely in this episode.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: Oh she's just- you just love her. You forgive her all her sins. This is why they had a successful marriage. 'Cause no matter how crazy she was, she could be this person, and ultimately you gotta love her. (Laughs.)
Grace: That's what we need.
RDM: This crazy bitch-
Grace: I- people love to hate her.
RDM: -who does all this nice psychotic stuff.
Grace: I love her.
RDM: But you gotta love her.
Grace: I love her through and through.
Tahmoh: In the beginning there, too. In the episode where it comes out that she's given 'em up to the Cylons.
RDM: Oh, it's harsh.
Tahmoh: It's harsh, but it's a beautiful, touching scene when she says to him, though, you truly believe it, just like, "I did this for you."
Grace: And she did s-
Tahmoh: "I was trying to save you." And she really was.
Grace: And she does.
Tahmoh: And she really was.
Grace: I mean, he was her world.
RDM: It was honest. It was a really great way to-
This. I love this scene. This is gettin'- this is called gettin' away with shit on TV.
Grace: Ha! Why what happened?
RDM: 'Cause this is these two. Well, let's see. He's gone.
Tahmoh: "He's a good kid."
Grace: This is not when that thing happens.
RDM: "I didn't think he'd ever leave." And then... yeah.
Grace: (Laughs.) Shut up!
Tahmoh: It's beautiful. It's perfect.
RDM: It's beautiful.
Tahmoh: I remember reading it thinking, "Is this- are they? What? Really?"
RDM: Oh, you wouldn't believe the fight that I had.
Tahmoh: (Laughs.)
Grace: Cigars?
RDM: About the- what are they?
Tahmoh: Cigars?
RDM: The cigars? I'm glad you think so, my dear. That defense-
Grace: Why? It's not that bad.
RDM: Ultimately, as long as I have at least one person in America who says it's a cigar.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: See? She thought it was a cigar.
Grace: Oh, I get it. They said (unintelligible)-
Tahmoh: That's perfect. That what you wanted- that's how you got away with it.
RDM: That's how I got away with it.
Grace: You know, that's funny, 'cause I was thinking, "Why are you guy- why they smoking cigars? I believe should be smoking fatties."
RDM: There you go.
Tahmoh: Did you see Eddie-
RDM: [16:37]But it's like a scene about them getting stoned. It always was.
Grace: (Laughs.) Oh that's- perfect. That cla- that look away. Oh, geez.
RDM: (unintelligible)
Tahmoh: Already, in looking at the fight scenes, they're a lot better than the original one that I saw.
RDM: The fight scenes we worked on a lot.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: Editors really- the editors, Jeute(?), I think in particular, the editor, really sweated the fight scenes. Jacques and Mikey-O. A lot of work into this and in post. I mean, this is really- 'cause there's just a lot of footage here to work with. There's a lot of story. There's a lot of scenes. There's a lot of choices about when you cut to these particular moments and what motivates them, in and out of the ring. Michael Taylor, who wrote this episode had in- he had indicated a lot of in and out moments and Bob Young shot a lot of the sequences with distinctive editing choice and to get out here and go there, but at a certain point you're in the editing bay and just- you just start throwing the cuts around a little bit to improve the rhythms here and there. And at a certain point those transitional moments, they might be there, still, or they're long gone and you don't even remember what they were. So it's really a lot of guys in post production sitting around and playing with this footage and running it back and forth and feeling the rhythm of it like you were experiencing a piece of music, in terms of how fast something is moving, how slow. When you pick up the pace, when you slow it down. It's interesting. It's an interesting excerci-
Grace: Would you say this is the show that you have the most control of, in terms of editing, as well?
RDM: You have a lot of control over this kind of a show, because you have so many ways to tell the story.
Grace: I mean you, personally.
RDM: Yeah. No. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah- there's myself and David Eick and the editors and there's a lot of people playing with the footage, but I really get to direct where it should go. It's interesting. It's grati- it's fun. It's fun doing it. I enjoy it.
Terry: He's always in a good mood when he gets to this part.
Grace: Really?
RDM: I always like editing?
Terry: Yeah.
Grace: Oh, really.
Tahmoh: "Chief."
Grace: Oh, this is awesome.
RDM: I love that.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: Eddie delivers that with such sincerity.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: When he says that, I'm goin', "He's talkin' to Aaron."
Tahmoh: He is totally.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: He's just like, throwing it at Aaron.
Grace: Wasn't that the line in the cast readthrough where you just busted out laughing? I mean, even though we're looking at it on the page, just to hear him say it.
RDM: And yet through all these fights, don't you feel like Tigh could, like, gut any of 'em and just- he'd just like whip out a knife and-
Grace: Exactly.
RDM: -split somebody open. That's why nobody's like, asking for Tigh to be their...
Grace: I was thinking, "No, with the gloves," but...
Nice.
RDM: There was anoth- there was a lovely little beat with Tigh and Adama that got cut, where Adama checked in with Tigh and just asked him how he was doing and Tigh was like- essentially admitted to- partially freaking out and just being totally overwhelmed by the experience, but it was good to be out. I love the look on Aaron's face here.
Grace: (Chuckles.)
Tahmoh: Like, "I'm gonna do the Old Man."
RDM: Yeah. This (unintelligible)
Grace: (Chuckles.)
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: But-
Grace: Ohhh. (Laughs.)
Terry: (Unintelligible)
RDM: Just right down.
Grace: That look in his face.
Tahmoh: Heh. Bodie.
Grace: Oops.
RDM: (Laughs.)
Terry: Look at everybody's faces.
RDM: I know, everybody's faces. And then, this is the payoff. (Laughs.)
Grace, Tahmoh: (Laugh.)
[Note: The next comment is on the MP3 version only.']
Terry: Let's get a (unintelligible)
Act 3
[Note: The portion of the next four comments up to Grace's "supposed to stop" are on the M4A version only.]
Tahmoh: (unintelligable)
Grace: 'Cause you gotta take it, right?
RDM: You gotta take it.
Grace: I think my favorite was when they were supposed to stop, but Eddie kept going and we didn't have anything ready and we were just throwing wraps and people were running around the ring. That was so fun, 'cause no one knew what was going on. Everyone, even Aaron, was like, "What the- Aren't we supposed to stop?"
Terry: (Laughs.)
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: Yeah.
Terry: (Coughs.)
Grace: (Unintelligible) it was really like..
Terry: (Coughs.)
Tahmoh: Oh, man. That's Edward James Olmos. He's an intimidating looking man. That's all there is to it. Even at his age, he's scary. I love it.
Grace: The guy's in shape though. He worked out for hours at a time now.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: It was strange thing when I was out on this location, at the New Caprica location, I was so strongly reminded about working on Carnivàle.
Grace: Oh, yeah?
Tahmoh: That- really?
RDM: Spooky, because Carni- shooting Carnivàle for HBO we were always in some big air- big ass location like that with tents. Tents, and ropes, and things, and scaffolds.
Terry: Yeah, it did. I thought that this part reminded me of Carnivàle.
RDM: Yeah.
Grace: Oh... that's what this is. I was like, "What the?"
RDM: We were out shooting places like this at night.
Tahmoh: How long did Carnivàle last?
RDM: Carnivàle did two seasons. We did the first season.
Grace: That was a cute cutaway.
Who made up these dances?
RDM: Well... (Chuckles.)
Grace: (Laughs.)
Terry: I asked the question of this to myself. I was like, "Why are they folk dancing?"
RDM: You're right. I think what Taylor wrote was in a Caprican- in a Colonial version of square dancing.
Grace: Yeah, because it looks like dancing.
RDM: And somehow that then becomes square dancing, and then it's like, the next thing you know, you're watching. You're going, "Are they square dancing?"
Grace: Yeah, they are.
RDM: Mhmmm.
Tahmoh: I when I fir- when I saw this first, I was blown away by Jamie and Katee's work.
RDM: Oh they're very interesting in this show.
Tahmoh: Yeah, they really are.
RDM: I think the one that gets shorted in this show is Kandyse. Cut a lot of her stuff. Cut a lot of Dualla. Cut Dualla way, way back.
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: They're still doin'- they're still toast.
Grace: Let me see that again.
RDM: Did you just see that French inhale?
Grace: No I didn't. Is that when you blow a little bit out and it comes back in?
RDM: Yeah, it goes back in through your nose.
Grace: I- oh. Oh, no. I hate through the nose.
Terry: You expect them to kiss.
Grace: I've gotta rewind this again.
RDM: Oh, I know.
Tahmoh: You always expect them to kiss.
Grace: It's funny, 'cause that's just the way they are. People always think, "Oh they're hitting on each other, and blah, blah, blah."
Oh, no. This, like, really looks like some wacky square dancing.
RDM: Remember he had the little song. There was a lot more to this sequence.
Tahmoh: Right, that's right.
RDM: There's a lot- we- there's a lot of stuff we shoot that ends up on the DVD in deleted scenes, 'cause this one oughta be.
Grace: I hope so.
RDM: I just enjoyed wri- I mean I was, Taylor was writing and I was writing and we kept throwing in different riffs along the way and one was Eddie lying there and started singing some song that he remembers from fighter pilot school and she starts laughing. She's, "What the hell is that?" He's like, "I don't remember man, some dude," he was just so stoned out of his mind. Adama stoned is remembering songs from his childhood.
Tahmoh, Grace: (Laugh.)
Tahmoh: That's great.
Grace: He still maintains a serious look (unintelligible)
Tahmoh: I tell you, man. Whenever I watch the two of them work- I had the opportunity this season to work with them a couple of times where it's just been us in scenes and I'm still just blown away sometimes. It's a little surreal for me. I'm like, "Wow. I'm in a scene with Edward James Olmos and Mary McDonald." And I've caught myself a couple of times. Especially the first scene I ever had with the two of them.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: That's-
Terry: Tahmoh's mouth is hanging open and staring at them (unintelligible)
Tahmoh: And then they're looking me and I'm looking back at them like, "Uh. Line! Line! Line, please! Line! Where are we? Ok."
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: Just forget completely that I'm in the scene, because I'm looking at the two of these people, incredible actors that they are. I mean, I'm constantly learning.
RDM: This is the "Passion of the Adama".
Grace: Whoah. The "Passion of the Adama".
RDM: There you go.
Oh, I know. I love the fact that he does come back with that quick combination after he's down and bending over.
Yeah, unfortunately a lot of Dualla stuff got cut back. Not en- not because of anything to do with Kandyse, but ultimately I think that we overwrote that part. We gave her too many- we gave the character too many speeches that were all about how she felt and were very emotional, over-the-top stuff. I watched them in film.
Tahmoh: Yeah, there were a number of them, weren't there?
Grace: Yeah, I never realized (unintelligible)
RDM: It doesn't sound- it didn't sound right in the show.
Grace: Huh.
RDM: And ultimately we were able to just- it's- the ro- the story of the character wasn't that big.
Grace: Ha!
RDM: Yeah, Anders-
Grace: Who is that?
RDM: Unfortunately we don't have the matching angle when you see his face, but that's really Trucco.
Grace: (Laughs.) Oh, it's even worse. It's like a shot of your butt and back. Not even your face.
RDM: He's a trooper. I think he literally got up from that shot and walked, 'cause he had to go catch an airplane. It was, like, the last shot. They were doing one of those things where the AD's were like, "Ok, he's got five minutes. He's gotta be in the car in five minutes."
Grace: He had his stuff in the car.
RDM: And Bob Young spryly jumping about the set. Bob was, like, bouncing around this boxing arena. Bob Young, the director, is a gentleman in his eighties.
Tahmoh: In his eighties?
RDM: And he's a remarkable human being and just an amazing man.
Grace: Is he really?
RDM: He is.
Grace: I swear- he- People always say he's ten years older every year. I thought he was seventy.
RDM and Tahmoh in unison: No.
RDM: No he's in his eighties. You can find-
Tahmoh: He's been working with him for-
RDM: Just look up his resume.
Grace: Yeah, yeah.
RDM: You start going, "Well, wait a minute."
Grace: Scroll down like ten-
Tahmoh: "What is he, the father of documentary film"
RDM: Essentially, yeah.
Grace: I thought his dad was.
Tahmoh: No, it's him.
RDM: No, it's him.
Grace: Really?
Tahmoh: Yes.
RDM: Yes.
Terry: It's not his dad, it's him.
Tahmoh: Sixty years ago he was in his twenties.
Grace: So you're telling me there wasn't no documentary before that?
Tahmoh: Well I'm sure there was.
RDM: Bob really put- he really put 'em on the map, in a certain way.
Grace: That's amazing.
RDM: A lot of blood in this episode.
Grace: Ick.
RDM: (Unintelligible)
Grace: That's self-inflicted. I love it.
Tahmoh: Eddie's great this way too easily. "No, no. I need more blood. No, give me more blood." We had to make sure we had lots of blood.
Grace: Ohhh. Look at that.
RDM: I had a feeling (unintelligible)-
Tahmoh: Everybody spitting lots of blood. He gets right into that.
RDM: Eddie's loves-
Grace: Lots of blood.
RDM: If Adama gets hurt then blood is gonna fly.
Tahmoh: Yeah. (Unintelligible)
Grace: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
RDM: From the miniseries, remember in the miniseries?
Grace: I was just gonna say that. When he got shot?
RDM: His whole face.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: What about that time I just shoot him?
RDM: Oh, yeah.
Grace: It wasn't a little pistol. You fly back- you throw back a hundred and I don't know how many pound man-
RDM: Yeah, you blew him right off his feet, somehow.
Grace: up onto- yeah, onto the console.
RDM: Just straight up in the air onto the console. That was a hell of a shot.
Grace: (Laughs.) You know the funniest part of that?
RDM: Mm?
Grace: Which Eddie will totally deny? Was that on the first take, the timing wasn't like really matched up with the gun. I hesitated a second just before the second one, and we watched in slow-mo, we're like, "Did Eddie jump before the gun went off? What?" Yeah. He totally did. He started the whole reaction, jumping back, and of course it was sound. Sound-
RDM: Sound.
Tahmoh: Sound.
Grace: Gun's sound-
RDM: Well, they were all fired.
Grace: effects. (Chuckles.) So (unintellible) but yeah, he made it look good.
RDM: This is one of my favorite beats, too. This is an image that I often think about, in terms of New Caprica.
Terry: Ohhh. Look at that (unintelligible).
RDM: When I think about that missing year, I think of this upcoming look on Adama's face. When he looks over at Tyrol.
Tahmoh: Yeah. Yeah.
Grace: Whoah. I never see Aaron look like that. Like, ever.
RDM: That's a great look. And Cally.
Tahmoh: Right here.
RDM: Right here.
Grace: Yeah. That says it all.
RDM: Again, this is the happiest we've ever seen this man.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: That's what he looks like every day.
Tahmoh: Yeah, sure. Look at that smile.
RDM: That's the happiest Adama's ever been.
Terry: That's just actually Eddie smiling.
Tahmoh: Look at that smile.
Grace: Yeah, exactly.
RDM: That's Eddie smiling.
Grace: That's what he looks like.
Terry: Yeah. Which you don't see a lot.
Tahmoh: No, you don't.
RDM: [a negative response] Mm-mm.
Grace: Hmm.
I'm starting to think that you like everything.
RDM: Yeah, I kinda like everything.
Grace: I didn't realize how much you like the show.
RDM: I do like the show.
Terry: (Laughs.)
Grace: What's so funny?
Terry: Unless he doesn't.
RDM: Things I don't like about the show. I've said some of the the things I don't like about the show.
Grace: Oh, really?
RDM: The thing with Dualla, I think was a mistake.
Grace: Yeah, but that's different.
Terry: It's when he doesn't like an episode, he sits there and just rants about it the whole time.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: Oh, no. We've talked about- I've talked about this in the podc- I mean, the "Fat Lee" incident was not our finest hour, because ultimately we didn't know where to go with that.
Grace: He had so many dead-ends for that character.
RDM: We did. We had a lot of dead-ends for the character and there blind alleys we went down with Lee and it's been- we've struggled with it. But we continue to work on it, because I think he's a really important part of the show.
Grace: Absolutely. But aren't people like that sometimes?
RDM: Mmmhmm.
Grace: Most people, themselves, go- they don't have amazing arcs. They just keep going down dead ends.
RDM: Yeah. No, I think that's true.
Eddie's great in the episode, like- this is when he reduces the crew-
Grace: Eddie's speech.
RDM: -and the cast, or like, the crew's barely watching the film anymore.
That's not Eddie. Sorry.
Grace: I know.
RDM: This is a temp ADR. This isn't there on the master.
Grace: Ok. It's a little better than my temp AD.
Terry: What if it was Eddie?
RDM: It couldn't be Eddie. He couldn't've done it. I don't think it it.
Grace: (unintelligible) be ADR (unintelligible)
RDM: I can tell that the line was looped, 'cause I knew Eddie- 'cause I'm sensitive.
Grace: Yeah (unintelligible) too.
RDM: Looping is one of those things that you have to do in t- film and TV that drives me a little batty. I hate looping. It's just-
Grace: 'Cause you can tell.
Tahmoh: -usually tell. I can usually tell.
RDM: You can almost always tell.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: It's really annoying. And from time immemorial it's just always the way in pictures.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: You can always tell production sound.
Grace: Yeah. (unintelligible)
RDM: I know it, but it's so hard to recapture. It's just like-
Grace: Absolutely.
It's weird. Like, this- it's somehow depressing what he's saying but like somehow it feels good.
RDM: Mmhmm.
Grace: Be like, "Yeah, let's just get back to work."
RDM: Yeah.
Tahmoh: But with healing and a few words that need to be said by the Admiral since the crews been reunited.
RDM: Angriest man in the universe.
Tahmoh: Oh, yeah.
RDM: Saul Tigh.
Tahmoh: Oh, man. I love Michael Hogan's work.
Grace: Uhh.
Tamoh: This season he's just-
RDM: Oh, he's great.
Tahmoh: He's great, there's no doubt about that. I mean, I've watched Michael Hogan's work for- ever since I was a kid but, I mean, there's a few scenes this year I-
Grace: Oh yeah.
Tahmoh: Never cease amaze me when a man can just- the classic scene when he comes back when we're reuniting. When he's coming off the Raptor and him and Eddie- he was coming off the Raptor and he's just recently had to put down his wife, literally, poison her. And I remember watching. Grace and I were across the room. Literally I'm watching him just walk off with this weight, walk off the Raptor wing. And it affected me from across the room. I was instantly, like, I was almost- I was so affected by it. I was just instantly saddened looking at him and knowing what the con- I mean, the conversation that was about to happen between him and Adama.
[Note: the last sentence of Tahmoh's comment appears on the MP3 version only.]
Act 4
[Note: the portion of the next three comments, up to Grace's "because of a certain" are on the M4V version only.]
Grace: -the background and they were all supposed to be so excited and everyone (unintelligable.)
Tahmoh: And everyone's cheering, and that's just it. Yeah.
Grace: Yeah, it almost looked like- it was weird, like a musical from Oliver! came back, because of a certain background they had. And then when Saul Tigh stepped off, it was almost like the wrong show stepped out. It was like a different show and it's like, "Err?" Two different shows in the same scene?
RDM: Mmhmm.
Grace: I forgot about this.
Terry: Yeah, they didn't listen to the Adama.
RDM: There was more- there were versions where Dualla and Anders came in earlier, witnessed more things that happen between Starbuck and Apollo in the ring. Had more interactions. There was like- there was actually-
Grace: Oh, yeah...
RDM: -scenes between Starbuck and Anders during the fight, in between rounds and things. And they all just went by the wayside 'cause it start to become apparent that the show really was- the episode really wasn't about those relationships.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: Mmm.
RDM: The Anders and Dualla were important inasmuch as they were the partners to these two, and we just kept whittling those roles back and focusing more about what was really going on.
This is- I love this whole little sequence. Another one of the things I like about the show Sh-, Grace, is-
Grace: (Chuckle.) You almost called me Sharon. I heard that.
RDM: -this particular- I almost did.
Grace: I saw the- I heard the Sh-
RDM: Ohhhh. That was good. You're good.
Tahmoh: You're watching dailies all day, I'm sure you (unintelligible) characters.
RMD: Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I like Katee's work in this epis- in this in particular.
Grace: I love that they actually are fighting each other, that you're actually seeing a man and a woman in the ring-
RDM: Mmhmm. It's a neat idea.
Grace: And she's giving it as hard as he is.
Tahmoh: Come right at each other, absolutely.
Grace: Yeah, the way they pulled that off.
RDM: Well it's also that at this point in the series we've given her the credibility to do it.
Terry: Yeah, you can believe it.
RDM: We've essentially said that's who this character is.
Terry: Yeah.
RDM: And we've tried to-
Terry: She's not gonna (unintelligible)
RDM: -show it over and over again, and so you accept that she will get in the ring with this specimen of-
Terry: Yeah.
RDM: -manhood that-
Terry: Yeah, and go for it.
RDM: -is Lee Adama.
Tahmoh: Yeah. And bring it to him.
Grace: I remember when I was little, I thought I could take my dad. At some point, when you get old enough, you're like, "I think I could take my dad."
Terry: (Laughs.)
RDM: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: I love it.
Grace: Everyone gets to that. I didn't think a girl would, but I certainly did. And I- I think I tried to arm wrestle him and I was so positive I could beat him.
Terry: (Chuckles.) Awww.
RDM: Yeah.
Tahmoh: I could take him.
Grace: (Chuckles.)
Terry: How old were you?
RDM: And he broke your arm?
Grace: Probably not young enough. (Laughs.)
Everybody: (Laugh.)
Terry: Good answer. I'm seventeen.
Grace: (Chuckles.) But it's like that thing like the two-year-old thinks that they can yell at their parent and then they realize, "No, I'm still dependent."
Terry: Yeah.
Grace: Never try it again.
RDM: This, unfortunately, this fight we had the least footage of, in the editing room.
Grace: Really?
RDM: Yeah. There was much more footage on the earlier fights. Tons, and tons, and tons of stuff.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: We didn't have as much to work with with Starbuck and Apollo.
Tahmoh: (unintelligible)
RDM: So there's a couple of times where we're breaking- in a boxing sequence like the ones we're constructing, it's not really about tracking each move and we're not making any attempt to keep continuity. You're just jumping around in the fight, but even so there's definitely places where we're cheating and we used a shot again. (Chuckles.) You might have seen earlier and slipping things through.
Grace: Ooh. I really like that first kiss.
RDM: Yeah.
Grace: Or not their first kiss, but-
RDM: But their first real kiss.
Grace: Yeah, their fir- yeah. That's pretty different than usually- she's not trying to make it anything.
RDM: I remember working on these pages, sitting in a production office. I was in my office in office in the production-
Grace: Up here?
RDM: -office, up here, and we were shooting "Exodus", and we were doing rewrites on this episode. And I'm sitting in my office in the production office and writing this scene. Everyone was gone and Harmony was like, outside the door and there was like various like production music going on (chuckles) outside the door.
Grace: (Chuckles.)
RDM: All of it- and whenever I watch this thing I always remember that, the context in which it was written more than I remember the scene.
Terry: Particular smell, as well?
RDM: Yes, it was a certain lavender.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: Which I find-
Grace: Why couldn't it be microwave popcorn? (Laughs.)
RDM: Not in our production office.
Grace: Pretty much.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: This is all very artful- very artfully framed.
Tahmoh: (unintelligible)
RDM: See, this is what I like. I love Katee through this whole bit of business here. The way she laughs. The complete, like-
Tahmoh: Yeah, she's great.
RDM: Unabashed... that.
Tahmoh: Yeah. And she's good at that, 'cause that's-
Grace: She is.
Tahmoh: -the real Katee Sackhoff, right there.
RDM: It looks like-
Tahmoh: When she laughs at him.
Grace: Oh, yeah.
Tahmoh: It is.
RDM: I believe it. It's like, whatever it is, I believe it, so I wanna believe that's who Katee Sackhoff is.
Tahmoh: It really is Sackhoff.
RDM: It's like, "Whoah. That must be honest."
Tahmoh: It's one of the questions you always get at conventions, "So, is Katee Sackhoff very much like Starbuck." I'm like, "Well, of course she is in a lot of ways because she is Starbuck, she is the actor who brings the character to life, but like Katee's very much a girl."
Grace: Oh, yeah. She's so girly.
Tahmoh: She's so girly, she's got great sense of humor, and she like to laugh. She really likes to laugh.
RDM: The look on her face here.
Grace: Yeah.
Terry: She's like a-
Grace: -with that little.
Terry: She's like a kid. Yeah.
Tahmoh: She is. Yeah.
Terry: Which is nice since Starbuck's always so guarded.
Tahmoh: Yeah
Terry: To see her doing something this-
Grace: I love it when you see light in the person's eye. I like that.
I just expected there to be a hottub there.
Terry: (Chuckles.)
RDM: (Laughs.) Well there was in the earlier draft.
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: Just that hot tub with a background. (Laughs.)
Grace: (unintelligible)
Terry: This is kind of like a hot tub.
Grace: Canadian upbringing, you know. If you're gonna be naked outside-
Terry: (unintelligible)
Grace: -it either has to be the ocean or a hot tub.
Tahmoh: That's right.
RDM: [Italian accent] Yeah, you fuckin' went away.
Tahmoh: [deep voice/slow-motion] You broke my 'eart.
Grace: [deep voice/slow-motion] Oooo.
Tahmoh: [deep voice/slow-motion] Get up!
RDM: [slow-motion] They took my thumb!
Tahmoh: (Chuckles.)
Grace: (Chuckle into laughter.)
Tahmoh: Whacha!
Grace: Yeah!
RDM: Yeah, you've gotta love that.
Grace: Ohhh.
Tahmoh: Nice round kick.
Grace: I like that.
Tahmoh: There's some Capoeira there.
Grace: Yeah.
Tahmoh: That's a Brazilian martial are there.
RDM: There was an argument to keep taking this moment out. I kept insisting-
Terry: This is so hard.
RDM: -to put this part back in. That you got-
Tahmoh: This one?
RDM: -you gotta have- You gotta see the moment when he wakes up alone.
Tahmoh: Yeah. No, this was great. I though this-
RDM: You gotta s- you gotta see (unintelligible).
Grace: You started with this, and you-
RDM: Started with that, too, yeah.
Tahmoh: Yeah, this is (unintelligible)-
RDM: The beginning you don't have any context for it.
Tahmoh: I though this was one of the most important-
Grace: This is just-
RDM: And this bit with his dad.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: Harsh.
Tahmoh: Yeah, he is.
RDM: Harsh, harsh, harsh.
Terry: Is it?
RDM: You can feel the air go out of him in the scene. And Eddie's- I love the way Eddie plays this. Eddie doesn't give him anything. Eddie has no, like- there's no moment of Adama going, "Are you ok?"
Tahmoh: "Are you ok?" There's nothing like that.
RDM: He's just like- "Oh, yeah."
Tahmoh: He's eatin' through the whole thing.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: Watch him. He's like, "Oh, yeah. They got married."
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: "This morning."
Tahmoh: Great, eh?
RDM: "Starbuck. You kinda liked her, didn't you?"
Everybody: (Laugh.)
RDM: And look at him. He's like-
Tahmoh: He's still eating (uninteligible)
RDM: He's dying and like, "You ok? You wanna nut?"
Everybody: (Laugh.)
RDM: Oh, it's harsh.
Tahmoh: It's just makes you-
RDM: But it's brilliant because it just makes it so much worse, 'cause he's so like in his own misery.
Terry: Ugh. This is so awful.
RDM: It's so awful.
Grace: You'd be pissed.
RDM: And there they come.
Terry: Oh... the first time I saw this I just hated her.
RDM: See? That's what I mean. It's all- it's-
Terry: I just hated her.
RDM: It's about how much can you hate Starbuck and you can't hate- you can't completely hate her? You have to-
Tahmoh: No, you can't.
RDM: -be careful on the show-
Terry: I don't know.
RDM: -that you don't- Do still completely hate her?
Terry: I haven't seen past this episode.
RDM: Oh. But by the end of this episode, you still hate her.
Terry: At the end of this episode I still hate her.
RDM: Ok.
Terry: I just-
RDM: That's fair.
Grace: I mean, they ended it with that.
RDM: That's fair enough.
Terry: I- yeah. It's just-
Grace: (unintelligible)
Terry: You just- it's such cowardice.
Grace: Cowardice. Interesting. That's not what I (unintelligible)-
RDM: Well, she runs. She ran.
Terry: She ran.
RDM: She totally ran.
Grace: That's true.
RDM: And there's something just so-
Grace: That's why he's like, "Ahhhh-"
RDM: -perfect about the fact that she's just at pissed him, somehow.
Grace: Yeah.
Terry: Yeah, that's the thing. Remember I asked you-
RDM: That she's pissed at him.
Terry: -the first time when I first saw it.
Tahmoh: Yeah
Terry: I said, "What's she so pissed off about?"
RDM: Oh, yeah. It's so-
Terry: Well, she's not- she's pissed at herself.
RDM: Oh, yeah. And it's so irrational. It's like-
Terry: Well, she's pissed at him because he knows the truth.
Grace: Yeah. I think I totally understand that.
Terry: Yeah.
Grace: When you don't let anyone in-
Terry: He's-
Grace: -and then you do, and then you like, "Raaaa!" in rage.
Terry: And then you do and then he's the only one who knows. I mean, he's- noone else knows that she let down her guard, except for him. So he becomes the object of the anger.
Tahmoh: I love her.
Grace: I love that.
Terry: Oh.
RDM: Oh, the look on her face here.
Tahmoh: The look on her ex- face is (unintelligible)-
RDM: Trucco's perfect too.
Terry: Well it's amazing, 'cause he doesn't get it.
RDM: Trucco's in his own mov- Trucco's in his own movie-
Terry: Yeah.
RDM: -about getting married.
Terry: That's right.
RDM: He's like happy now, I mean, which is like.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Terry: You ever notice the look between these two?
Grace: [weird voice] Look at the frickin'-
RDM: Look at that look.
Grace: Trucco really must be that. Or, not Trucco, I mean Anders, did not see that.
RDM: He's like Adama. Noone's noticing.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
RDM: These people are in their own misery.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: Now, do you think it's really fair to do that to people? 'Cause in reality, I mean, you know.
Terry: What?
Grace: You notice. [weird voice] When two people are starin' at each other like, blinking away, eyes fluttering or-
RDM: Oh, is it fair to do that in the scene?
Grace: Well I wonder how realistic (unintelligible)-
RDM: Well, but it's not always about being realistic. It's about-
Grace: I know, it's not, is it?
RDM: It's more about, "What's the dramatic point here?"
Grace: Oh, yeah.
RDM: What are- what's- what is it I'm trying to get across to the audience. What is the- where do I want them to be. I want them to be with Apollo and Starbuck.
Grace: Well, of course. Nobody-
RDM: You're just-
Grace: I understand that.
RDM: -and essentially, it's making them- it's giving those other characters- forcing space around that relationship, for a few moments, so that you're not dealing with that interaction of, ok, now he was to resp- he has to say, "No, I'm ok, I'm fine," and whatever, and it wastes time within the scene. So you tend to try to like brush it out a little bit.
Grace: But in reality, I've had conversation with people where I'm like, "Blah, blah," and just keep goin' and goin' and they're just so bummed out.
RDM: Sure.
Tahmoh: And-
RDM: It's close enough to being true that it's valid.
Grace: It is true, yeah. It is true.
RDM: You can take a license on that.
Tahmoh: We all know people who've- you've had a circle of friends, that oldest group of friends who you've known for years, and there's- sometimes there's this chemistry between two people and they've never, for whatever reason, because they've been in another relationship, it's just- it's never worked out between those two, but there's always been that potential.
Terry: Yeah.
Tahmoh: And people just- you've always been part of it also so you can look past it. There's a lot of things you're not even seeing anymore.
Terry: That is so true.
RDM: It's fun to see how- it's fun to see these flashbacks of them from prior episodes, 'cause you see how different everybody was.
Grace: Yeah, I know.
RDM: I mean, people have really changed over the course of the show.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Terry: You guys have all really changed.
RDM: The show has evolved.
Tahmoh: It's true.
RDM: The characters have evolved. They're not the same people they were at the beginning.
Terry: No.
RDM: That's the great thing about the show.
Grace: Looking back we look so innocent, and yet, at the same time, the characters are so innocent.
Terry: Going back to the miniseries and looking at you guys and seeing you now, it's like-
Grace: Babies.
RDM: Look at them there. That's only-
Tahmoh: It's just a new chapter.
RDM: -that's only a year ago. That's season two.
Tahmoh: Which is so true to the show, if you think about it.
Grace: Yeah.
Tahmoh: Like everything that we've happened-
Terry: Well you guys (unintelligible) dreamt of what's happened to everybody.
Tahmoh: Everything that these characters have had to endure, like, and just suck up. (unintelligible)-
RDM: And the miles on-
Tahmoh: -keep on moving, moving on and forget about these- everything that we experienced, those people we've lost. There hasn't really been much opportunity to deal with that. These- all these people and this new (unintelligible)-
Grace: So sad.
Tahmoh: -had to deal with it and just move on. Like, we were talking about last night, how like, what I find so interesting is with this society really grasping onto the old rules that resolidify.
Terry: Yeah, they don't.
Tahmoh: Govern themselves. But they don't-
Terry: They don't want anymore.
Tahmoh: Yeah, they're not really working. A lot of them aren't working.
Terry: Well-
Tahmoh: But we're still holding onto that because it's all we know.
Terry: And Grace, to your question about, what's his name, Anders, "How can he not see?" In this sort of circumstance I mean, you, I mean, don't you just cling on to any little bright glimmering that you possibly can.
Tahmoh: Yeah.
Grace: That's true.
Terry: And shutout, if only because there's a good possibility.
Grace: Yeah, that's so true.
Tahmoh: This is a guy who was running around a planet for-
Terry: (Unintelligible).
RDM: Well and that- yeah.
Terry: Now he's got a light.
RDM: that's kinda where we kept taking Anders.
Terry: And this woman that he loves and he wants to believe desperately loves him.
Tahmoh: He really wants to believe.
Terry: Oh, it's true.
RDM: There's a certain point that Anders doesn't want to be disillusioned beyond. Like, that's why he stepped out at "Collaborators". There was a point where he was like, "I'm not doing this anymore. I can't do this anymore. This is not what I'm about. And he just left. And he walked out. It was interesting 'cause that set up one of the more defining moments of the character that have been very soft and mostly defined by his relationship with Starbuck. Oh, look at point. That was pretty much who Anders was. He was Starbuck's lover. He was-
Tahmoh: Exactly.
RDM: -the object of Starbuck's affection and desire and then "Collaborators" is really the first time he had his own story about his decisions and about what mattered to him for the first time. So then, yeah, this episode in the same way is the the same kind of thing. He's just- he's willing- he's gonna sleep with Starbuck if that's what she'll give him and then-
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: "Ok. See ya later." And he'll- and he's coming back. He'll just- he's- he'll keep it goin' around but he never really becomes one of them. Which is like an interesting thing, because he's one of the few characters that really isn't of the rest of the family, in a certain way.
Grace: Mmhmm.
RDM: He definitely- he feels like part of the family, yet outside in their midst.
Tahmoh: Mmhmm.
RDM: Whereas the rest of them are just caught up in their own internal disfunction, more or less.
Terry: [quiet] (Unintelligible).
RDM: Well, that is the end of the episode, and the end of the podcast.
Terry: So how did you guys like it?
Grace: Nooooo! It can't be over.
RDM: See, now Grace is gonna do one for every episode.
Grace: Yeah, I will so when's the next one.
RDM: This is how this starts.
Grace: (Laughs.)
Tahmoh: So, Grace and I are gonna start flying down to LA to see you guys for the weekend and a podcast.
Grace: (Laughs.)
RDM: So, thank you all for listening.
Grace: Thank you.
RDM: We will- I will talk to you next time-
Grace: Oh, fun.
RDM: -for episode nine, "Maelstrom", uh, no, not "Maelstrom", episode nine, is-
Grace: No, you're not ending it, are you?
RDM: I am.
Grace: No!
RDM: Do you have more to say?
Grace: Uh... I just wanna see how long I can keep this going before you actually shut it off.
RDM and Grace: (Laugh.)
RDM: Again, actresses know 'em.
Terry: Someone on the board wants to know.
RDM: You can't kill 'em.
Terry: Someone on the board says, "Isn't Grace married?" Because they couldn't quite figure out why you two are here together and they wonder...
Grace: Ha ha ha ho... well, no. You caught me.
[Note: The remainder, starting with Terry's "put two and two" is on the MP3 version only.]
Terry: The board, listen they're in there, "Wait a minute. Let's put two and two together."
Tahmoh: Let's put it all together.
Grace: [whispering] We're on a double date.
Terry: Grace is very happily married to Phil.
Tahmoh: [whispering] I think they got us.
Grace: [whispering] Oh shit! You mean they've-
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